Written on August 2, 2012 at 8:22 am, by Eric Cressey
I’ve been very outspoken in the past about how I am completely against the inclusion of Olympic lifts in baseball strength and conditioning programs because of injury risk and the fact that I don’t believe the carryover in power development is as good as many folks think. I’ve taken a lot of heat for it, too, as it’s essentially blasphemy for a strength and conditioning coach to not think the Olympic lifts are a “Holy Grail” of performance enhancement.
Truth be told, I think there is merit to the Olympic lifts for a lot of athletes and general fitness folks. However, baseball players aren’t like most athletes or general fitness folks. They have far more joint laxity, and it’s a key trait that helps to make them successful in their sport. While I hate to ever bring additional attention to an extremely unfortunately event, a weightlifting injury that occurs in this year’s Olympics reminded me of just one reason why I don’t include the Olympic lifts with our throwers. Please keep in mind that while this isn’t the most “gruesome” lifting injury video you’ll see, some folks might find it disturbing (if you want to see the more gruesome “after” photo, read this article). If you’re one of those folks, don’t push play (Cliff’s notes: he dislocates his elbow).
Now, without knowing for sure what the official diagnosis is, an elbow dislocation could mean two things. First, it could have been elbow hyperextension; I doubt that’s the case, as the elbow appears to be slightly flexed when it “buckles.” Second – and more likely – we’re talking about a valgus stress injury; not the joint angle below, which is approximately 20-30 degrees of elbow flexion:
You know what’s remarkably coincidental about that elbow flexion angle? It’s where you do a valgus stress test to assess the integrity of the ulnar collateral ligament.
I don’t know for sure if Sa Jae-hyouk is going to have a Tommy John surgery, but I can’t say that I would be surprised if it does occur. And, he certainly wouldn’t be the first Olympic lifter to have one.
Now, I want to bring up a few important items.
1. I think this essentially kills the “they’re safe for baseball players if it’s in good form” argument that some folks throw out there. For those who might not know, this was a gold medalist in Beijing in 2008, and he was expected to medal at this year’s Olympics, too. I suspect he knows a few things about proper Olympic lifting technique.
2. According to research from Bigliani et al, 61% of pitchers and 47% of position players at the professional levels had sulcus signs (measure of instability) in their throwing shoulders. And, 89% of the pitchers and 100% of the position players ALSO had it in their non-throwing shoulders, meaning that this is the way that they were born, not just something they acquired from throwing. I’ve never met an accomplished male Olympic lifter with a sulcus sign, though, which tells me that laxity is virtually non-existent in this athletic population, particularly in comparison with baseball players. We need to fit the exercises to the athlete, not the athlete to the exercises.
3. The obvious next question for most folks is “what about cleans and high pulls?” With cleans, the wrist and elbow stresses are even more problematic than with snatches, and there is also the issue of direct trauma to the acromioclavicular joint on the catch phase. Plus, when folks hang clean, the distraction forces on the lowering component of the lift (assuming no drop) can be a big issue in “loose” shoulders and elbows. High pulls are a bit better, but all of the aggressive shrugging under load with minimal scapular upward rotation can really interfere with the improvements to scapular stability that we’re trying to make with our overhead throwing athletes.
This is one case where the injury prevention battle isn’t just about adding the right exercises; it’s about taking some away, too.
With all that said, I hope you’ll join me in keeping Sa Jae-hyouk in your thoughts and send him good vibes for a speedy recovery and quick return to competition.
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Completely agree Eric. The other thing that most coaches miss is that they assume that if they do incorporate Olympic lifts, their athletes will automatically get explosive. To gain the benefits, let’s say from a hang clean, it must be performed efficiently and with explosive speed, i.e., doing the lifts as intended. Unfortunately, very few athletes perform the Olympic lifts explosively and with a high RFD.
Interesting post. Joe Horrigan made the same point at a conference I attended a few years ago, although he mentioned pitchers and not position players. I still think there is some value to them doing snatch pulls or clean pulls (mitigating the risk from the catch).
Thanks for posting the Lehman article, I’m looking forward to giving that a read!
A couple questions: 1) This is one study, have there been others done? You know as well as I do that unless there are multiple studies done it is tough to rule anything out.
2) Rotational power movements are great, but does that mean you are going to only to rotational?
I am a proponent of both and have been using o-lifts to train throwing athletes for a long time and I have never had any injury related problems. I am by no means saying that you should incorporate them, rather that they CAN be effective if the coach knows how to teach them.
Side note: Smitty, if they aren’t doing them explosively like they should wouldn’t that be a coaching issue, not a reason to refrain from using them?
I’ve got a couple of questions, Eric. If you’re using this med ball shot put, for example, as a power exercise for an athlete, how do you go about progressing through a cycle? Typically with, say a clean high pull, you can drastically increase the intensity over a period of time (80kg to 100kg several weeks later), whereas in this case there’s only so much weight that those joints can handle in a 3 dimensional movement. I guess what I’m saying is would going from a 10lb med ball to a 16 lb med ball really elicit the change you want to see as far as power output in the lower body? And what are some of the variables you can use to progress through an exercise like that?
Also, I’ve read a little about balancing out rotational abdominal movements with baseball athletes, especially in-season when guys are taking BP every day, and taking so many cuts with a bat in general. What are your thoughts on volume of rotational torso work in regards to balancing the overload you get with a guy taking X number of hacks per week, or even throwing X number of pitches per week?
Like John said, thanks for posting the Lehman article. Very great insight.
With much respect (as you are pretty awesome) I have a comment/question in response to this posting.
This type of injury, although unfortunate and very apparent, occurs much less than injuries in other sports. So saying something like not having an athelete lift oly style to avoid injury could be compared to not having an athlete to plyometrics or anything else where injury can occur. I do agree with you in the sense that it might not be the greatest thing in the world for every athlete to do. But, just like everything else it has it’s advantages and disadvantages.
My question is where you draw that line as this will work and this wont?
For example the study on oly lifts not translating into rotational sports such as baseball. But there is a huge direct correlation between discus and shot throwers and oly lifts.
I know there is a lot out there and everyone is different, but its hard for me to wrap my head around these lifts not haviing a good cost/benefit ratio for baseball players.
Would working on stability with the oly lifts help with the laxity in the arm a bit (obviously not too much) and possibly prevent some of these surgeries we keep hearing about on sports center? amongst some other thoughts.
This is going on too long but this just intrigues me too much. Any thoughts would be great, no response do to the length of this thing is fine too. Thanks
Good stuff…do you have the same/different thoughts on dumbell variations of Olympic movements, including unilateral lifts (single arm snatch, split jerk)?
While I think they’re less stressful and actually provide a bit more training in the frontal/transverse planes in the case of unilateral drills, I can’t say that I value them enough to push something else out of our programming. Thanks for the great question, though!
1. Not that I’m aware of. Want to give me $50K to run one? 🙂
2. Our guys still lift heavy in the sagittal plane, sprint, jump, and do med ball throws. We do more rotational work than we do with our other athletes, but it’s not exclusive.
I know you have taken some heat for this, but I couldn’t agree with you more. And call me crazy, but it just seems so logical beyond what research has caught up to. Those that fight against, I feel, don’t have a full grasp of what goes on in the joints during baseball activities.
Hey Eric;
Thanks for the great post. I think it is important for coaches to remember what sport their athletes play and how Olympic lifts will improve their performance. Too often coaches get caught up with what exercises look flashy and lose sight of what will help/hinder their athletes.
Excellent article as always Eric. I think the same could mostly be said for any overhead athlete. While I still learned to O-lift myself, I’ve found that it doesn’t really agree with 10 years of relatively high-level volleyball and my hitting shoulder.
As a coach now, I’m very selective with who I use O-lifting with, particularly with both hypo and hypermobile individuals. I will say though that there are a lot of components I learned during O-lifting certs/workshops/seminars that are typically used to teach the lifts that I’ve found very beneficial in teaching people how to absorb and distribute force (things like drop squats, MB cleans, overhead squats, etc…).
At the end of the day it comes down to risk vs reward. I don’t buy the whole ‘if they are taught properly argument’ either…some people just shouldn’t use o-lifts and overhead athletes are probably at the top of that list.
Why does it seem like there are so many movements that baseball players SHOULDN’T do? It just seems like they are such a fragile group of athletes. Also, of all the snatches being done in the world of Olympic Weightlifting or just strength and conditioning programs, how many times do you think this injury occurs? Isn’t there the occasional injury caused by med ball throws? Do we then say we shouldn’t do those as well? FYI, I was a D1 ballplayer, so I am familiar with the demands of the sport. Just asking here, not trying to be difficult.
Hi Eric! Interesting article. We train amongst others “handball” teams. We oursrelves teach no olympic lifts yet but other explosive exercises. As the players that are in the national team are supposed to use olympic lifts by demand of the handball federation, my question is, would you suggest that they as well as baseball players do not use them?
Hey Eric.
Thanks for posting this. I’ve been contemplating using Olympic lifts for my pitchers primarily for the “overload”. As a former pitcher I’ve never used them or was even introduced to them. Of course in my era of playing plyometrics and “long” toss was the precribed routines. As I work with high velosity guys I work rotational force applications and shoulder stability exercises. This seems to work for them. Call me old school 😉
Great post Eric. I keep reading about Olympic lifts like they’re some magic bullet for velocity gains. Have been skeptical due to what seems like a bad risk/reward. This incident and the points you make just reconfirm that. Especially when you consider the extra joint laxity and the likelihood ballplayers wont be doing them with great form. I shudder when I watch this video (skip to 1:30):
Thanks for highlighting my study. I wish I had 50K to run another study as well.
Needless to say I am with you in regards to no olympic lifting with my baseball players. We have been playing around with med ball throws for height which have the exact same triple extension pattern. Not to mention the fact that they are easy to teach and fun to execute.
It’s something I think that’s been a bit overblown. We just don’t back squat, overhead press, or Olympic lift our baseball guys. Those are really our only modifications that are unique to this population.
That said, I think these three modifications are justified in light of the fact that throwing a baseball is the fastest motion in all of sports.
This is a great contribution, and I agree with you that some of the teaching tools/cues are great across multiple disciplines. It’s up to the coach to know if/when to use the actual lifts.
Wow. I’ve routinely added mph to my pitchers by snatching and cleaning and jerking. Got one from 85mph to 93mph and a D-1 Scholarship. 4 years running we added 20lbs. and dropped 2/10ths of 60times by D-1 BB players- and never running. Competing at the Olympic Games and using the olympic lifts for performance enhancement are 2 different things. You wouldn’t take some of the freak injuries one finds in Powerlifting and say never do benchpresses or deadlifts. Bad logic also. If you can’t do the lifts, you can’t teach them. This article lowers my estimation of Mr. Cressey immensely.
So I guess the next question then would be, what about other athletes with overhead throwing or repetitive overhead motion, say javelin throwers or swimmers……cost of power development vs shoulder stability?
To be clear, it’s not that I don’t think O-lifts can improve performance. Put more force into the ground, gain weight, and you’ll throw harder, run faster, etc. The point of discussion is injury rates and whether other approaches can yield faster results with less risk. I happen to believe that they can.
This situation was not meant to be portrayed as a freak injury to scare people; it was used because it is an extremely valid depiction of the injury mechanism – both acute and chronic – by which ulnar collateral ligament tears occur.
I would emphasize that there is a big difference between disagree and dislike. You may not agree with me, but to say that your estimation of me is lower implies that you think less of me as a person for bringing an issue of concern to the forefront and presenting a logical argument (as well as free education to those who seek it). I’d encourage you to get pensive instead of getting defensive; we can all learn from each other.
http://WWW.HENRYSBASEBALLCLUB.COM 781 891 0621 BOY WAS I LUCKY PLAYED HUNDRED’S OF BASEBALL GAMES NEVER REALLY HAD A BAD INJURY. IN MY YOUTH I DID TURN MY ANCLE A FEW TIMES BUT IT HEALED AFTER A WEEK OF REST. THIS IS WHY I TELL PLAYER’S NOT TO PLAY THE VICIOUS FOOTBALL IN 1 PLAY U CAN END UP IN A WHEAL CHAIR. THEY HAVE TO LEARN THE HARD WAY.
1. Far more run-up, so definitely more lower half contribution.
2. Much lower throwing volume overall as compared to baseball.
3. Heavier implement, which limits lay-back a little bit (although they’ll still have a ton)
That said, I’ve seen Tommy Johns in javelin throwers, quarterbacks, and swimmers. Haven’t seen one in a volleyball player yet, but I’m sure it’s happened (and they had more than enough shoulder issues to make up for it). For me, it’s just not worth the risk when my #1 job is to keep them on the field/court or in the water.
That line is a very gray area; it’s not just black on one side and white on the other. You can derive performance enhancement benefits from O-lifts, no doubt, but do they outweigh the potential risks? In my eyes, no.
The truth is that the longer I train baseball players, the more I realize the power development is not the challenge in training them. It’s actually remarkably easy to get guys stronger and more powerful in a manner than translates to their performance. I don’t need a study to demonstrate to me that guys who train with our programs after coming from traditional squat/bench/clean football-esque programs do remarkably better, stay healthier, and go out of their way to comment to us about what a positive difference the change made.
How many risks you’re willing to take on in a program are relative to the athlete in question and time of year. This really makes strength and conditioning as much of an art as it is a science.
RE: your question about working with stability, I don’t believe so. Athletes will resort to faulty movement patterns when under significant load, and we have no way of knowing whether the stability is coming from the active or passive restraints (you can’t palpate during an Olympic lift, but you can with manual cuff exercise, scapular stabilization drills, and rhythmic stabilizations).
Yes this does. Thank you again for your time. I can appreciate the value experience can have on programming, especially for a specialty like baseball.
Thanks again,
Eric, I agree that all Oly lifts aren’t for every athlete but when you say they aren’t good for throwing athletes aren’t javelin throwers doing them and various progressions? Also, wouldn’t the load also be a determining factor in the type of injuries cited since most athletes aren’t getting even close to the loads of competitive weight lifters.
Thanks
This kind of goes ties into both this article, and what you wrote in the attached “What I learned in” article. I couldn’t agree more that sometimes strength coaches freak out a little too much about symmetry, especially when you are working SSP. For example, would Tim Collins, being a lefty, also do the Step-Behind Rotational Med Ball Shotput pushing off his right foot too (for symmetry purposes)? Or are you just working on SSP strength/power?
He’s do both sides – and in some cases, I’ll actually have guys do more volume on the non-dominant side in the early off-season to help iron out some asymmetries.
I answered the javelin inquiry a bit further up this thread, so check that out.
RE: the load, remember that most throwing injuries are chronic accumulation, not isolation incidents. Guys can get hurt throwing 75mph if it’s in poor mechanics or they lack strength/mobility in the right places. Submaximal O-lifts work the same way.
“1. I think this essentially kills the “they’re safe if it’s in good form” argument that some folks throw out there.”
Even though Sa’s technique is orders of magnitude better than most people performing the lifts for sport-specific training, the fact that he competes in the lifts probably increases the likelihood that he’d “push through” something a more casual trainee wouldn’t.
How many powerlifters have injured themselves on the deadlift, squat or bench press because they need to compete in those lifts? You can’t just stop bench pressing because your shoulder hurts if you have a meet coming up. These people are also messing around with loads far greater than those seen in non-competitive environments.
This says nothing about your other points, just wanted to reframe that first one a bit.
I love how fired up everyone gets about the OL’s. Why do we need them? I say more athletes don’t than do.. This dead horse has been beat to death by man knowledgable coaches who aren’t brain washed.
I believe that OL’s are essential to many strength coaches programs because they #1 Don’t understand how to replace them with other legitimately explosive movements like jumps, plyo, med balls throws, and sprint work. At least 90% of strength coaches know more about OL’ing techniques than they do about power speed drills and running technique. Last time that I checked we train athletes. Sure strength and strength speed are vital aspects of athletic performance but aren’t we training athletes not weight lifters? Other than ice hockey, don’t our athletes sprint on the ground? #2 Most facilities(for various reasons) aren’t designed for medicine ball throwing and sprint work.
I ask the industry, what’s more important, athletes lifting weights or athletes knowing how to move efficiently like an athlete? Please take in mind that I have 5 platforms w/ bumper plates, 5 racks, a Texas Power Bar and 2 Pedlay OL bars along with a high ceiling and turf.
Honestly, does anyone believe that if Eric got a pitcher that was throwing 90mph and wanted more gas that OL’s would be the answer? If Eric started OL’ing that athlete would potentially throw 95 mph? The weight coach would say hell ya. The physical preparation coach would say maybe, depends on the athlete and their current state of traindedness.
Assuming someone has adequate thoracic mobility and shoulders that have good mobility (loose), they should be able to get their elbows up high enough that there isn’t much pressure on the wrists or elbows.
It’s pretty easy to drop each rep of a clean rather than lower it under control with the arms.
If taught properly an athlete meets the bar in a power clean rather than letting the bar “crash” onto their AC joint. Would it be wise to advise multi sport athletes who play baseball to avoid sports such as football, hockey, wrestling, or other activities where there is the possibility an impact on the AC joint?
The video of Sa blowing out his elbow is definitely graphic, but how is it relevant to a discussion of potential shoulder issues?
Thanks for your post. I’d agree that cleaning up Olympic lifting technique certainly helps to minimize risk. However, the thing I can’t overstate enough is that it’s very hard to perceive how baseball players view these lifts until you’ve coached them and heard them discuss them. There is an overwhelming apprehension about performing them in light of the amount of laxity they have, as well as the accumulated wear and tear on their arms that are in place. I understand that it’s our job to educate athletes on why something may benefit them, but in this case, I feel strongly that they’re right; they know their bodies better than we ever could.
You won’t see significant issues with AC joints in throwers until ages 17-18, for the most part, because of accumulated wear and tear. By this point, the multi-sport discussion is often out of the equation.
Please see above; I think the still-frame photo of valgus stress is tremendously valuable to the discussion of injury mechanism and the parallel we can draw to throwing athletes. It was not meant to simply make an example out of him. I am actually a huge O-lifting fan and really enjoy watching guys compete at the highest level.
Thanks for your post – but please see my response earlier about why I even mentioned him in the first place. It was a good depiction of injury mechanism.
Keep in mind that we modify powerlifting movements for our baseball guys…more neutral grip pressing (DBs, usually) and front squat/SSB/GCB instead of back squatting. This wasn’t just singling out O-lifts, as I’ve discussed the other modifications in the past.
Whether baseball players should weightlift or not we can debate. However, I do not see a lot of information to back up your claim of safety (or the lack of it). If I am to take this article for what it says, then athletes should not run either. There are a lot more injuries that occur while running than Olympic weightlifting. I seems that you do not realize the difference between training and competing. When competing (especially at the Olympic level) the athlete is far more likely to fight to save a bad lift (risking injury) instead of dropping it, like they would do in training. Maybe a little more research is needed here.
That couldn’t be further from the truth. We’re talking about chronic adaptations (UCL calcification, anterior shoulder instability) that take place that are specific to one population and make one set of exercise concerning. Not surprisingly, I’ve actually received several emails in the past two days alone from baseball players discussing their injuries during the O-lifts; this isn’t a one-time phenomenon that only occurs in competition situations.
Thanks for the response, you’ve put out a lot of good info over the years.
Given that a properly taught and executed power clean minimizes stress on the wrist/elbows and catching a power clean properly shouldn’t have much more of an impact on the AC joint than taking a front squat out of the rack, is your contention with the power clean that baseball players perceive the exercise as dangerous and therefore it shouldn’t be used with them?
Thanks for the info, Eric. I did have a question on this one, however…
My own background is in Oly lifting, and thus have a hammer and see everything as a nail, so I appreciate any feedback on this one.
I work with a bunch of pro beach volleyball players (mostly women) that have extreme laxity often accompanied by anterior shoulder pain due to over-development of the internal rotators (and resulting weakness in the scapula depressors + retractors and GH external rotators).
I have found in my own experience that cleans and jerks are a no-go due to general shoulder mobility of the rack position (fixable, but more of a long term issue that we are correcting). However, muscle snatches have been extremely beneficial with this population due to the scapular and GH control being developed through the external rotation and scapular depression + retraction. This also decreases the shock loading of the elbow and shoulder joint, while helping with the explosive lower body portion of the lift.
Can you comment on this and possibly discuss problems/alternatives?? Thanks.
I think the argument with respect to the shoulder/elbow/wrist concerns it that you’re really just one bad rep away from issues, regardless of how the players perceive it. And, as you work to teach it, there are going to be some bad reps along the way. Additionally, given the nature/duration/constraints of the baseball season, it isn’t necessarily going to be an ideal scenario for those guys to practice the lift on a regular basis and maintain technical proficiency year-round. Lots easier to just high pull if you’re going to do anything, you know?
For sure cleans and the other olympic lifts can be challenging to teach, especially given time constraints and a lack of the skill set needed to effectively teach them.
Just to clarify, would you say that your stance on the power clean is that there is a high risk of performing the exercise incorrectly and that it’s the bad reps that will cause injury? The original article seems to imply that even correctly executed power cleans will be directly hazardous to baseball players.
August 2nd, 2012 at 8:34 am
Completely agree Eric. The other thing that most coaches miss is that they assume that if they do incorporate Olympic lifts, their athletes will automatically get explosive. To gain the benefits, let’s say from a hang clean, it must be performed efficiently and with explosive speed, i.e., doing the lifts as intended. Unfortunately, very few athletes perform the Olympic lifts explosively and with a high RFD.
August 2nd, 2012 at 8:36 am
Interesting post. Joe Horrigan made the same point at a conference I attended a few years ago, although he mentioned pitchers and not position players. I still think there is some value to them doing snatch pulls or clean pulls (mitigating the risk from the catch).
Thanks for posting the Lehman article, I’m looking forward to giving that a read!
August 2nd, 2012 at 8:45 am
Thanks, John!
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:05 am
A couple questions: 1) This is one study, have there been others done? You know as well as I do that unless there are multiple studies done it is tough to rule anything out.
2) Rotational power movements are great, but does that mean you are going to only to rotational?
I am a proponent of both and have been using o-lifts to train throwing athletes for a long time and I have never had any injury related problems. I am by no means saying that you should incorporate them, rather that they CAN be effective if the coach knows how to teach them.
Side note: Smitty, if they aren’t doing them explosively like they should wouldn’t that be a coaching issue, not a reason to refrain from using them?
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:07 am
Hi Eric,
For those of us who purchased show and go, do you have a list of exercises we should omit for baseball player?
Thanks,
Bob Carlile
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:14 am
I’ve got a couple of questions, Eric. If you’re using this med ball shot put, for example, as a power exercise for an athlete, how do you go about progressing through a cycle? Typically with, say a clean high pull, you can drastically increase the intensity over a period of time (80kg to 100kg several weeks later), whereas in this case there’s only so much weight that those joints can handle in a 3 dimensional movement. I guess what I’m saying is would going from a 10lb med ball to a 16 lb med ball really elicit the change you want to see as far as power output in the lower body? And what are some of the variables you can use to progress through an exercise like that?
Also, I’ve read a little about balancing out rotational abdominal movements with baseball athletes, especially in-season when guys are taking BP every day, and taking so many cuts with a bat in general. What are your thoughts on volume of rotational torso work in regards to balancing the overload you get with a guy taking X number of hacks per week, or even throwing X number of pitches per week?
Like John said, thanks for posting the Lehman article. Very great insight.
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:21 am
With much respect (as you are pretty awesome) I have a comment/question in response to this posting.
This type of injury, although unfortunate and very apparent, occurs much less than injuries in other sports. So saying something like not having an athelete lift oly style to avoid injury could be compared to not having an athlete to plyometrics or anything else where injury can occur. I do agree with you in the sense that it might not be the greatest thing in the world for every athlete to do. But, just like everything else it has it’s advantages and disadvantages.
My question is where you draw that line as this will work and this wont?
For example the study on oly lifts not translating into rotational sports such as baseball. But there is a huge direct correlation between discus and shot throwers and oly lifts.
I know there is a lot out there and everyone is different, but its hard for me to wrap my head around these lifts not haviing a good cost/benefit ratio for baseball players.
Would working on stability with the oly lifts help with the laxity in the arm a bit (obviously not too much) and possibly prevent some of these surgeries we keep hearing about on sports center? amongst some other thoughts.
This is going on too long but this just intrigues me too much. Any thoughts would be great, no response do to the length of this thing is fine too. Thanks
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:30 am
Good stuff…do you have the same/different thoughts on dumbell variations of Olympic movements, including unilateral lifts (single arm snatch, split jerk)?
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:44 am
Tony,
While I think they’re less stressful and actually provide a bit more training in the frontal/transverse planes in the case of unilateral drills, I can’t say that I value them enough to push something else out of our programming. Thanks for the great question, though!
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:46 am
Hi Bob,
Yes! Give this a read:
http://ecressey.wpengine.com/show-and-go-for-baseball-training
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:47 am
Jon,
1. Not that I’m aware of. Want to give me $50K to run one? 🙂
2. Our guys still lift heavy in the sagittal plane, sprint, jump, and do med ball throws. We do more rotational work than we do with our other athletes, but it’s not exclusive.
August 2nd, 2012 at 11:08 am
I know you have taken some heat for this, but I couldn’t agree with you more. And call me crazy, but it just seems so logical beyond what research has caught up to. Those that fight against, I feel, don’t have a full grasp of what goes on in the joints during baseball activities.
August 2nd, 2012 at 11:39 am
Hey Eric;
Thanks for the great post. I think it is important for coaches to remember what sport their athletes play and how Olympic lifts will improve their performance. Too often coaches get caught up with what exercises look flashy and lose sight of what will help/hinder their athletes.
August 2nd, 2012 at 12:08 pm
Great Stuff. 100% AGREED
August 2nd, 2012 at 12:34 pm
Excellent article as always Eric. I think the same could mostly be said for any overhead athlete. While I still learned to O-lift myself, I’ve found that it doesn’t really agree with 10 years of relatively high-level volleyball and my hitting shoulder.
As a coach now, I’m very selective with who I use O-lifting with, particularly with both hypo and hypermobile individuals. I will say though that there are a lot of components I learned during O-lifting certs/workshops/seminars that are typically used to teach the lifts that I’ve found very beneficial in teaching people how to absorb and distribute force (things like drop squats, MB cleans, overhead squats, etc…).
At the end of the day it comes down to risk vs reward. I don’t buy the whole ‘if they are taught properly argument’ either…some people just shouldn’t use o-lifts and overhead athletes are probably at the top of that list.
August 2nd, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Why does it seem like there are so many movements that baseball players SHOULDN’T do? It just seems like they are such a fragile group of athletes. Also, of all the snatches being done in the world of Olympic Weightlifting or just strength and conditioning programs, how many times do you think this injury occurs? Isn’t there the occasional injury caused by med ball throws? Do we then say we shouldn’t do those as well? FYI, I was a D1 ballplayer, so I am familiar with the demands of the sport. Just asking here, not trying to be difficult.
August 2nd, 2012 at 2:49 pm
Hi Eric! Interesting article. We train amongst others “handball” teams. We oursrelves teach no olympic lifts yet but other explosive exercises. As the players that are in the national team are supposed to use olympic lifts by demand of the handball federation, my question is, would you suggest that they as well as baseball players do not use them?
August 2nd, 2012 at 3:01 pm
Hey Eric.
Thanks for posting this. I’ve been contemplating using Olympic lifts for my pitchers primarily for the “overload”. As a former pitcher I’ve never used them or was even introduced to them. Of course in my era of playing plyometrics and “long” toss was the precribed routines. As I work with high velosity guys I work rotational force applications and shoulder stability exercises. This seems to work for them. Call me old school 😉
August 2nd, 2012 at 3:36 pm
Great post Eric. I keep reading about Olympic lifts like they’re some magic bullet for velocity gains. Have been skeptical due to what seems like a bad risk/reward. This incident and the points you make just reconfirm that. Especially when you consider the extra joint laxity and the likelihood ballplayers wont be doing them with great form. I shudder when I watch this video (skip to 1:30):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An4ferImqZs
Also, have been looking to add more lateral jumps and med ball work with my pitchers, would be interested in any recommendations. Thanks!
August 2nd, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Eric,
Thanks for highlighting my study. I wish I had 50K to run another study as well.
Needless to say I am with you in regards to no olympic lifting with my baseball players. We have been playing around with med ball throws for height which have the exact same triple extension pattern. Not to mention the fact that they are easy to teach and fun to execute.
Graeme
August 2nd, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Great contribution and research, Graeme! Thank you.
August 2nd, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Yikes, Phil; that was pretty brutal….regardless of sport!
August 2nd, 2012 at 3:57 pm
Hi Jerrod,
It’s something I think that’s been a bit overblown. We just don’t back squat, overhead press, or Olympic lift our baseball guys. Those are really our only modifications that are unique to this population.
That said, I think these three modifications are justified in light of the fact that throwing a baseball is the fastest motion in all of sports.
Good question; thanks!
August 2nd, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Klaus,
I’m more familiar with baseball than handball, but the demands seem quite comparable. I’d probably follow the same set of rules.
August 2nd, 2012 at 4:00 pm
Darren,
This is a great contribution, and I agree with you that some of the teaching tools/cues are great across multiple disciplines. It’s up to the coach to know if/when to use the actual lifts.
Thanks for the post!
August 2nd, 2012 at 4:01 pm
Wow. I’ve routinely added mph to my pitchers by snatching and cleaning and jerking. Got one from 85mph to 93mph and a D-1 Scholarship. 4 years running we added 20lbs. and dropped 2/10ths of 60times by D-1 BB players- and never running. Competing at the Olympic Games and using the olympic lifts for performance enhancement are 2 different things. You wouldn’t take some of the freak injuries one finds in Powerlifting and say never do benchpresses or deadlifts. Bad logic also. If you can’t do the lifts, you can’t teach them. This article lowers my estimation of Mr. Cressey immensely.
August 2nd, 2012 at 4:17 pm
So I guess the next question then would be, what about other athletes with overhead throwing or repetitive overhead motion, say javelin throwers or swimmers……cost of power development vs shoulder stability?
August 2nd, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Joseph,
To be clear, it’s not that I don’t think O-lifts can improve performance. Put more force into the ground, gain weight, and you’ll throw harder, run faster, etc. The point of discussion is injury rates and whether other approaches can yield faster results with less risk. I happen to believe that they can.
This situation was not meant to be portrayed as a freak injury to scare people; it was used because it is an extremely valid depiction of the injury mechanism – both acute and chronic – by which ulnar collateral ligament tears occur.
I would emphasize that there is a big difference between disagree and dislike. You may not agree with me, but to say that your estimation of me is lower implies that you think less of me as a person for bringing an issue of concern to the forefront and presenting a logical argument (as well as free education to those who seek it). I’d encourage you to get pensive instead of getting defensive; we can all learn from each other.
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:09 pm
Eric,
What about pull ups for pitchers?
Thanks,
Bob Carlile
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:16 am
http://WWW.HENRYSBASEBALLCLUB.COM 781 891 0621 BOY WAS I LUCKY PLAYED HUNDRED’S OF BASEBALL GAMES NEVER REALLY HAD A BAD INJURY. IN MY YOUTH I DID TURN MY ANCLE A FEW TIMES BUT IT HEALED AFTER A WEEK OF REST. THIS IS WHY I TELL PLAYER’S NOT TO PLAY THE VICIOUS FOOTBALL IN 1 PLAY U CAN END UP IN A WHEAL CHAIR. THEY HAVE TO LEARN THE HARD WAY.
August 3rd, 2012 at 5:26 am
Bob,
We do them all the time!
August 3rd, 2012 at 5:30 am
Mike,
A few thoughts on javelin…
1. Far more run-up, so definitely more lower half contribution.
2. Much lower throwing volume overall as compared to baseball.
3. Heavier implement, which limits lay-back a little bit (although they’ll still have a ton)
That said, I’ve seen Tommy Johns in javelin throwers, quarterbacks, and swimmers. Haven’t seen one in a volleyball player yet, but I’m sure it’s happened (and they had more than enough shoulder issues to make up for it). For me, it’s just not worth the risk when my #1 job is to keep them on the field/court or in the water.
August 3rd, 2012 at 5:38 am
Hi Rob,
That line is a very gray area; it’s not just black on one side and white on the other. You can derive performance enhancement benefits from O-lifts, no doubt, but do they outweigh the potential risks? In my eyes, no.
The truth is that the longer I train baseball players, the more I realize the power development is not the challenge in training them. It’s actually remarkably easy to get guys stronger and more powerful in a manner than translates to their performance. I don’t need a study to demonstrate to me that guys who train with our programs after coming from traditional squat/bench/clean football-esque programs do remarkably better, stay healthier, and go out of their way to comment to us about what a positive difference the change made.
How many risks you’re willing to take on in a program are relative to the athlete in question and time of year. This really makes strength and conditioning as much of an art as it is a science.
RE: your question about working with stability, I don’t believe so. Athletes will resort to faulty movement patterns when under significant load, and we have no way of knowing whether the stability is coming from the active or passive restraints (you can’t palpate during an Olympic lift, but you can with manual cuff exercise, scapular stabilization drills, and rhythmic stabilizations).
Hope this helps.
August 3rd, 2012 at 11:42 am
Yes this does. Thank you again for your time. I can appreciate the value experience can have on programming, especially for a specialty like baseball.
Thanks again,
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:48 pm
Eric, I agree that all Oly lifts aren’t for every athlete but when you say they aren’t good for throwing athletes aren’t javelin throwers doing them and various progressions? Also, wouldn’t the load also be a determining factor in the type of injuries cited since most athletes aren’t getting even close to the loads of competitive weight lifters.
Thanks
August 3rd, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Eric,
This kind of goes ties into both this article, and what you wrote in the attached “What I learned in” article. I couldn’t agree more that sometimes strength coaches freak out a little too much about symmetry, especially when you are working SSP. For example, would Tim Collins, being a lefty, also do the Step-Behind Rotational Med Ball Shotput pushing off his right foot too (for symmetry purposes)? Or are you just working on SSP strength/power?
August 3rd, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Brian,
He’s do both sides – and in some cases, I’ll actually have guys do more volume on the non-dominant side in the early off-season to help iron out some asymmetries.
August 3rd, 2012 at 3:57 pm
Hi Eric,
I answered the javelin inquiry a bit further up this thread, so check that out.
RE: the load, remember that most throwing injuries are chronic accumulation, not isolation incidents. Guys can get hurt throwing 75mph if it’s in poor mechanics or they lack strength/mobility in the right places. Submaximal O-lifts work the same way.
Thanks for your post!
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:03 pm
“1. I think this essentially kills the “they’re safe if it’s in good form” argument that some folks throw out there.”
Even though Sa’s technique is orders of magnitude better than most people performing the lifts for sport-specific training, the fact that he competes in the lifts probably increases the likelihood that he’d “push through” something a more casual trainee wouldn’t.
How many powerlifters have injured themselves on the deadlift, squat or bench press because they need to compete in those lifts? You can’t just stop bench pressing because your shoulder hurts if you have a meet coming up. These people are also messing around with loads far greater than those seen in non-competitive environments.
This says nothing about your other points, just wanted to reframe that first one a bit.
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:10 pm
I love how fired up everyone gets about the OL’s. Why do we need them? I say more athletes don’t than do.. This dead horse has been beat to death by man knowledgable coaches who aren’t brain washed.
I believe that OL’s are essential to many strength coaches programs because they #1 Don’t understand how to replace them with other legitimately explosive movements like jumps, plyo, med balls throws, and sprint work. At least 90% of strength coaches know more about OL’ing techniques than they do about power speed drills and running technique. Last time that I checked we train athletes. Sure strength and strength speed are vital aspects of athletic performance but aren’t we training athletes not weight lifters? Other than ice hockey, don’t our athletes sprint on the ground? #2 Most facilities(for various reasons) aren’t designed for medicine ball throwing and sprint work.
I ask the industry, what’s more important, athletes lifting weights or athletes knowing how to move efficiently like an athlete? Please take in mind that I have 5 platforms w/ bumper plates, 5 racks, a Texas Power Bar and 2 Pedlay OL bars along with a high ceiling and turf.
Honestly, does anyone believe that if Eric got a pitcher that was throwing 90mph and wanted more gas that OL’s would be the answer? If Eric started OL’ing that athlete would potentially throw 95 mph? The weight coach would say hell ya. The physical preparation coach would say maybe, depends on the athlete and their current state of traindedness.
August 3rd, 2012 at 10:33 pm
Assuming someone has adequate thoracic mobility and shoulders that have good mobility (loose), they should be able to get their elbows up high enough that there isn’t much pressure on the wrists or elbows.
It’s pretty easy to drop each rep of a clean rather than lower it under control with the arms.
If taught properly an athlete meets the bar in a power clean rather than letting the bar “crash” onto their AC joint. Would it be wise to advise multi sport athletes who play baseball to avoid sports such as football, hockey, wrestling, or other activities where there is the possibility an impact on the AC joint?
The video of Sa blowing out his elbow is definitely graphic, but how is it relevant to a discussion of potential shoulder issues?
August 4th, 2012 at 6:21 am
Mike,
Thanks for your post. I’d agree that cleaning up Olympic lifting technique certainly helps to minimize risk. However, the thing I can’t overstate enough is that it’s very hard to perceive how baseball players view these lifts until you’ve coached them and heard them discuss them. There is an overwhelming apprehension about performing them in light of the amount of laxity they have, as well as the accumulated wear and tear on their arms that are in place. I understand that it’s our job to educate athletes on why something may benefit them, but in this case, I feel strongly that they’re right; they know their bodies better than we ever could.
You won’t see significant issues with AC joints in throwers until ages 17-18, for the most part, because of accumulated wear and tear. By this point, the multi-sport discussion is often out of the equation.
Please see above; I think the still-frame photo of valgus stress is tremendously valuable to the discussion of injury mechanism and the parallel we can draw to throwing athletes. It was not meant to simply make an example out of him. I am actually a huge O-lifting fan and really enjoy watching guys compete at the highest level.
Best,
EC
August 4th, 2012 at 6:22 am
Great contribution, Scott; thanks.
August 4th, 2012 at 6:24 am
Todd,
Thanks for your post – but please see my response earlier about why I even mentioned him in the first place. It was a good depiction of injury mechanism.
Keep in mind that we modify powerlifting movements for our baseball guys…more neutral grip pressing (DBs, usually) and front squat/SSB/GCB instead of back squatting. This wasn’t just singling out O-lifts, as I’ve discussed the other modifications in the past.
August 4th, 2012 at 8:36 am
Whether baseball players should weightlift or not we can debate. However, I do not see a lot of information to back up your claim of safety (or the lack of it). If I am to take this article for what it says, then athletes should not run either. There are a lot more injuries that occur while running than Olympic weightlifting. I seems that you do not realize the difference between training and competing. When competing (especially at the Olympic level) the athlete is far more likely to fight to save a bad lift (risking injury) instead of dropping it, like they would do in training. Maybe a little more research is needed here.
August 4th, 2012 at 9:22 am
John,
That couldn’t be further from the truth. We’re talking about chronic adaptations (UCL calcification, anterior shoulder instability) that take place that are specific to one population and make one set of exercise concerning. Not surprisingly, I’ve actually received several emails in the past two days alone from baseball players discussing their injuries during the O-lifts; this isn’t a one-time phenomenon that only occurs in competition situations.
August 4th, 2012 at 6:15 pm
Thanks for the response, you’ve put out a lot of good info over the years.
Given that a properly taught and executed power clean minimizes stress on the wrist/elbows and catching a power clean properly shouldn’t have much more of an impact on the AC joint than taking a front squat out of the rack, is your contention with the power clean that baseball players perceive the exercise as dangerous and therefore it shouldn’t be used with them?
August 5th, 2012 at 9:05 pm
Thanks for the info, Eric. I did have a question on this one, however…
My own background is in Oly lifting, and thus have a hammer and see everything as a nail, so I appreciate any feedback on this one.
I work with a bunch of pro beach volleyball players (mostly women) that have extreme laxity often accompanied by anterior shoulder pain due to over-development of the internal rotators (and resulting weakness in the scapula depressors + retractors and GH external rotators).
I have found in my own experience that cleans and jerks are a no-go due to general shoulder mobility of the rack position (fixable, but more of a long term issue that we are correcting). However, muscle snatches have been extremely beneficial with this population due to the scapular and GH control being developed through the external rotation and scapular depression + retraction. This also decreases the shock loading of the elbow and shoulder joint, while helping with the explosive lower body portion of the lift.
Can you comment on this and possibly discuss problems/alternatives?? Thanks.
– Cody
August 5th, 2012 at 11:02 pm
Mike,
I think the argument with respect to the shoulder/elbow/wrist concerns it that you’re really just one bad rep away from issues, regardless of how the players perceive it. And, as you work to teach it, there are going to be some bad reps along the way. Additionally, given the nature/duration/constraints of the baseball season, it isn’t necessarily going to be an ideal scenario for those guys to practice the lift on a regular basis and maintain technical proficiency year-round. Lots easier to just high pull if you’re going to do anything, you know?
August 6th, 2012 at 11:45 am
For sure cleans and the other olympic lifts can be challenging to teach, especially given time constraints and a lack of the skill set needed to effectively teach them.
Just to clarify, would you say that your stance on the power clean is that there is a high risk of performing the exercise incorrectly and that it’s the bad reps that will cause injury? The original article seems to imply that even correctly executed power cleans will be directly hazardous to baseball players.