Baseball Strength Training Programs: Are Dips Safe and Effective?
Written on December 12, 2012 at 9:52 am, by Eric Cressey
I received the following question from a baseball dad earlier today, so I thought I'd turn it into a quick Q&A, as I think my response will be valuable information for many players - as well as those in the general population who want to avoid shoulder problems.
Q: What's your opinion on bar dips for baseball players? My son's high school coach has a strength training program that includes bar dips and I was wondering about the safety and effectiveness of the exercises for baseball players.
A: I'll occasionally include dips in strength training programs for general fitness clients, but I'll never put them in programs for baseball players.
You see, when you do a dip, you start in a "neutral" position of the humerus with respect to the scapula; the arm is at the side (neither flexed nor extended):
The eccentric (lowering) portion of the exercise takes the lifter into humeral extension far past neutral.
This is an extremely vulnerable position for many shoulders, but particularly in overhead throwing athletes. You see, overhead athletes like swimmers and baseball, volleyball, cricket, and tennis players will acquire something we call anterior instability from going through full shoulder external rotation over and over again. Essentially, as one lays the arm back (external rotation = osteokinematics), there is a tendency of the humeral head to glide forward (arthrokinematics).
If the rotator cuff and scapular stabilizers aren't perfectly strong and completely on time, the only things available to prevent the humeral head from popping forward in this position are the long head of the biceps tendon and the glenohumeral ligaments at the front of the shoulder. Over time, these ligaments can get excessively stretched out, leading to a loose anterior capsule and a biceps tendon that moves all over the place or simply becomes degenerative from overuse. And, anyone who's ever had a cranky biceps tendon will tell you that you don't want to overuse that sucker.
As a quick digression, this is one reason why you're seeing more anterior capsule plication (capsular tightening) procedures being done, with Johan Santana probably being the most noteworthy one. The problem is that after a surgeon tightens up a capsule, it takes a considerably amount of time for it to stretch out so that a pitcher will regain his "feel" for the lay-back portion of throwing. Additionally, anecdotally, I've seen more biceps tenodesis surgeries in the past year on throwers and non-throwers alike, which tells me that surgeons are seeing uglier biceps tendons when they get in there to do labral repairs. These are tough rehabilitation projects without much long-term success/failure data in throwers, as they fundamentally change shoulder anatomy (whereas a traditional labral repair restores it) and call into question: "Does a pitcher need a biceps tendon?" Mike Reinold wrote an excellent blog on this subject, if you're interested in learning more.
Bringing this back to dips, we make sure that all of our pushing and pulling exercises take place in the neutral-to-flexed arc of motion, meaning we try to keep the humerus even with or in front of the body. This is because humeral extension past neutral (as we see with dips) has a similar effect on increasing anterior instability as throwing does. For those who are visual learners, check out the first few minutes of this rowing technique video tutorial:
I'd argue that the negative effects of bench dips are even more excessive, as they don't allow an individual to even work from a neutral position to start, as the bench must be positioned behind the body, whereas the parallel bars can be directly at one's side.
So, to recap...
1. No dip is a good idea for an overhead throwing population. Bench dips - which are probably used more because they are more convenient for coaches out on the field - are especially awful.
2. Regular dips probably aren't a great idea for the majority of the population, especially those with bad posture, weak scapular stabilizers, poor rotator cuff function, or current or previous shoulder pain.
3. In particular, anyone with a history of acromioclavicular joint injuries or chronic pain in this area (e.g. osteolysis of the distal clavicle) should stay away from dips (and another other exercise that puts the elbow behind the body).
4. Bench dips are really awful for everyone.
Looking for a program that trains the upper body safely and effectively - and without dips? Check out The High Performance Handbook, the most versatile strength and conditioning program on the market.
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And one I shall be forwarding to personal trainers who work where I train after I witnessed one client dislocating her rib being made to do power plate dips last week….. :/
Hey Eric,
I do dips to work the triceps but find it painful in my clavicle area due to the strain it puts on it. What exercise do you suggest I replace the dips with that will still work the triceps without putting undue strain on my shoulder, elbow, and clavicle? I do overhead triceps extensions and triceps pull downs but would like to have at least 3 exercises and am not a fan of triceps DB kickbacks as I find them ineffective
Very good blog post. You state “If the rotator cuff and scapular stabilizers aren’t perfectly strong and completely on time, the only things available to prevent the humeral head from popping forward in this position are the long head of the biceps tendon and the glenohumeral ligaments at the front of the shoulder.” AS a former pitcher and now pitching coach, I have as well as some players have experienced tightness and some pain where the bicep tendon connects to the shoulder. Is it probable that the rotator cuff and scapular stabilizers are strong enough for the pitching/throwing work load? In your opinion what can cause this common tightness I have experienced regarding the upper bicep tendon? is there anyway to correct this?
This is great inforamation and a real eye opener, thank you. What would you suggest to replace the dip in the workout of an overhead athlete in the gym. Also, is there anything that coaches can do out on the field to replace the bench dip?
Eric,
Great Stuff. So glad to see you answer this question. I had been wondering the same thing. I would often substitute dips for over head presses for people with pain in over head pressing moves, but worried about the shoulder extension past neutral. What would recommend with this type of situation.
Close grip bench presses, floor presses, and landmine presses would all be valuable additions, most likely. Hard to say without evaluating you, though; I’d check with a qualified medical professional to evaluate your shoulder.
It’s likely poor anterior instability. Step one is to educate them on how to center the humeral head in the glenoid fossa, and then maintain that “centration” with all rotator cuff exercises, scapular stabilization drills, and – eventually – throwing.
Hi
I’m just reading this now about a month after publication. I’m 63 years old and learning to surf and have never had a serious shoulder injury. I do no other overhead exercises. I’ve been doing ring dips for about four years without any problems. After reading this article I feel like I should stop doing them although I’m reluctant to. Would that be your recommendation?
Thanks
Larry
There are definitely better options (push-up variations, for example). Try switching over; I think you’ll find them to have much better carryover to surfing, too.
Hi Eric, interesting post. I am a swimmer and surfer and this explains why I have always felt a bit suspect on the dips. Lately I have been trying some static holds in the start position of a dip….they seem to feel like they actually help with stability especially on straps or rings. Is there much merit to this?
Statically in that position, I don’t think they’d be a problem. I’d use a variation of positions to train your stability for the wide range of activities you’ll get with surfing and swimming, though.
Eric,
What’s your opinion regarding hip extension exercises applying the same paradigm with the acetabulum/femoral head? Is there a difference between open/closed exercises? (glute kick plate vs. ankle cuff cable extension) Would they be contra-indicated for the same reasons?
Substantially different, Eric. It’s much easier to control femoral anterio glide at the hip with sufficient glute activation. The shoulder is much more unstable and the cuff is harder to manage than the glutes.
I can’t do overhead presses or flat presses of any kind, but can do weighted dips. What other alternatives do I have for chest and shoulder development. BTW, DB fly’s are out, too. Thanks Eric!
Hey Eric. Amazing article and extremely timely and relevant for me. I injured my shoulder about two months ago and haven’t been able to train. Two Osteopaths have been unable to help or diagnose me and my Doctor has basically just tried me on different NSAID’s. I’m waiting to see a specialist to hopefully get an MRI and see exactly what’s going on but my problem has been that nobody has been sure exactly what has caused the problem. I’ve had consistent nagging shoulder pain that has kinda been moving around different parts of the shoulder and to the back of my neck as well as down my bicep. Up until now I wasn’t really sure what exercise in the gym had caused this problem as I always track my workouts and didn’t have any performance issues in the gym. I’d assumed it was a shoulder exercise that caused my problem but after my last shoulder workout I was able to do 2 other workouts without problems. The last workout I was able to do was Chest/Tri’s where I did 35kg waiting dips. I weigh around 65kg at best and always go heavy on weighted dips so I’m now thinking they did the damage. Thanks a lot for your insight. I’ll probably stay away from dips when I start training again.
Amen to this article. This is one of those exercises that people just won’t give up. There are so many better, safer ways to strengthen triceps without trashing the shoulders, especially for people with shoulder issues. As always, Eric Cressey is right on the mark!
Dear Eric I know the question was about baseball players doing dips, but 77kg Olympic weightlifter LU of CHina does these with 3 25kg plates hanging from his waist and I believe exercises like this is the reason the Chinese weightlifting team is so good.
Of course, as a swing dancer, I have more latitude than a baseball player, but I used dips in the past with light weight to increase my ROM in that plan and worked wonders. 5 reps/day 5 days/week for about 5 weeks. I experienced discomfort at first and soreness in the tendon then 5 weeks later, I felt better than ever and gain 4-6 inches of ROM.
Hi Eric,
I am a college pitcher (and PT student). I stopped dips a few months ago, but because I was getting notable ulnar nerve irritation at the bottom position. Ever notice anything similar?
Not surprising. Pitchers get enough flexion/extension, and getting to this extreme position of flexion with significant triceps action could make an ulnar nerve cranky. Is it subluxating as well?
Do you think Static holds on the gymnastic rings with the arms in neutral (the gymnastic rings “front support” position) can play a good role in strength and stability development for the shoulders (albeit Isometric)? I find multiple sets of 30 sec holds of these really challenging but very beneficial because everything has to stay engaged (shoulders, core etc.) I’ve had two AC separations on the right shoulder and this seems a good, safe way to train strength and stability.
Eric,
I am a crossfitter currently trying to work on getting a ring muscle-up and one of the main elements in the progression is a big dip. I’d appreciate your thoughts on how to progress in my muscle-up ability if doing dips is not highly recommended…is there no way to make them more safe? I am particularly interested because just the other day when I was doing my dips I felt very “hunched” at the bottom, which I’m guessing is due to the what you covered in this article.
December 12th, 2012 at 9:57 am
Eric,
Slightly off topic, but what are your thoughts on the whole “dead arm” phenomenon?
James
December 12th, 2012 at 10:10 am
Superb article!
And one I shall be forwarding to personal trainers who work where I train after I witnessed one client dislocating her rib being made to do power plate dips last week….. :/
December 12th, 2012 at 11:07 am
Hey Eric,
I do dips to work the triceps but find it painful in my clavicle area due to the strain it puts on it. What exercise do you suggest I replace the dips with that will still work the triceps without putting undue strain on my shoulder, elbow, and clavicle? I do overhead triceps extensions and triceps pull downs but would like to have at least 3 exercises and am not a fan of triceps DB kickbacks as I find them ineffective
December 12th, 2012 at 11:39 am
Cressy,
Another epic post coach. Damm you are good!
Frank
December 12th, 2012 at 12:02 pm
Eric,
Very good blog post. You state “If the rotator cuff and scapular stabilizers aren’t perfectly strong and completely on time, the only things available to prevent the humeral head from popping forward in this position are the long head of the biceps tendon and the glenohumeral ligaments at the front of the shoulder.” AS a former pitcher and now pitching coach, I have as well as some players have experienced tightness and some pain where the bicep tendon connects to the shoulder. Is it probable that the rotator cuff and scapular stabilizers are strong enough for the pitching/throwing work load? In your opinion what can cause this common tightness I have experienced regarding the upper bicep tendon? is there anyway to correct this?
December 12th, 2012 at 12:08 pm
Eric,
This is great inforamation and a real eye opener, thank you. What would you suggest to replace the dip in the workout of an overhead athlete in the gym. Also, is there anything that coaches can do out on the field to replace the bench dip?
Thnank you
Stephen Robb
Babson ’03
December 12th, 2012 at 2:27 pm
This was great. Thanks, Eric!
December 12th, 2012 at 2:28 pm
Another great post Eric and an excellent question from the dad who has a son in a program at the high school. Thanks for your detailed explanation.
December 12th, 2012 at 2:40 pm
Eric,
Great Stuff. So glad to see you answer this question. I had been wondering the same thing. I would often substitute dips for over head presses for people with pain in over head pressing moves, but worried about the shoulder extension past neutral. What would recommend with this type of situation.
Thanks.
December 12th, 2012 at 4:12 pm
Great information. As a volleyball player, what would you recommend as a substitute for dips, other than push up variations?
December 12th, 2012 at 5:01 pm
Ben,
Push-up variations, DB bench presses, landmine presses, etc. will work great.
December 12th, 2012 at 5:02 pm
Mario,
Work on push-ups, floor presses, and possibly some landmine presses as progressions later on.
December 12th, 2012 at 5:02 pm
Thanks for the kind words, Matt!
December 12th, 2012 at 5:03 pm
Hi Stephen,
Thanks for the kind words. Check out my responses a bit earlier and it should answer your question.
Nice to see another Babson guy on here!
December 12th, 2012 at 6:15 pm
Mr.Cressey
I am a pitcher also, would the same humeral extension concept apply with pushups and db bench?
Ex: pushups- not going past 90 degrees and -and db bench ..not letting your elbows dip past your shoulders/trunk
Thanks
December 12th, 2012 at 6:17 pm
Adding to my previous question, Would you suggest that pitchers only do floor db bench?
December 12th, 2012 at 8:10 pm
Justin,
Close grip bench presses, floor presses, and landmine presses would all be valuable additions, most likely. Hard to say without evaluating you, though; I’d check with a qualified medical professional to evaluate your shoulder.
December 12th, 2012 at 8:10 pm
James,
Dead arm is somewhat of a garbage term. Lots of causes, and lots of ways to fix it.
December 12th, 2012 at 8:13 pm
Steve,
It’s likely poor anterior instability. Step one is to educate them on how to center the humeral head in the glenoid fossa, and then maintain that “centration” with all rotator cuff exercises, scapular stabilization drills, and – eventually – throwing.
December 12th, 2012 at 9:59 pm
Eric: What about weight-assisted bar dips?
December 12th, 2012 at 11:29 pm
EC,
Would this apply to dips on rings as well? What about ring bulgarian dips? For athletes and general fitness folks.
December 13th, 2012 at 9:20 pm
Brian,
Yes.
December 13th, 2012 at 9:21 pm
Ted,
Same problems.
December 13th, 2012 at 9:22 pm
Robert,
Push-ups and DB bench presses are different, as you go from a flexed position to neutral, not a neutral position to extreme extension.
Plus, with push-ups, you can draw a lot of stability from the floor.
December 13th, 2012 at 9:22 pm
Also, Robert, we’ll use regular DB bench with our pitchers. Don’t do it a ton, but it has a place.
December 17th, 2012 at 9:49 am
Eric,
Does the same logic/issues hold true for ring dips?
December 17th, 2012 at 8:21 pm
Alex,
Absolutely.
January 14th, 2013 at 12:33 am
Hi
I’m just reading this now about a month after publication. I’m 63 years old and learning to surf and have never had a serious shoulder injury. I do no other overhead exercises. I’ve been doing ring dips for about four years without any problems. After reading this article I feel like I should stop doing them although I’m reluctant to. Would that be your recommendation?
Thanks
Larry
January 14th, 2013 at 8:05 am
Larry,
There are definitely better options (push-up variations, for example). Try switching over; I think you’ll find them to have much better carryover to surfing, too.
February 6th, 2013 at 9:32 am
Hi Eric, interesting post. I am a swimmer and surfer and this explains why I have always felt a bit suspect on the dips. Lately I have been trying some static holds in the start position of a dip….they seem to feel like they actually help with stability especially on straps or rings. Is there much merit to this?
February 6th, 2013 at 4:50 pm
Mark,
Statically in that position, I don’t think they’d be a problem. I’d use a variation of positions to train your stability for the wide range of activities you’ll get with surfing and swimming, though.
May 30th, 2013 at 12:19 pm
Eric,
What’s your opinion regarding hip extension exercises applying the same paradigm with the acetabulum/femoral head? Is there a difference between open/closed exercises? (glute kick plate vs. ankle cuff cable extension) Would they be contra-indicated for the same reasons?
May 30th, 2013 at 7:11 pm
Substantially different, Eric. It’s much easier to control femoral anterio glide at the hip with sufficient glute activation. The shoulder is much more unstable and the cuff is harder to manage than the glutes.
April 6th, 2014 at 7:24 am
I can’t do overhead presses or flat presses of any kind, but can do weighted dips. What other alternatives do I have for chest and shoulder development. BTW, DB fly’s are out, too. Thanks Eric!
April 6th, 2014 at 7:31 am
Eric, would you recommend that gymnasts dont do dips in their strength training programs? Thanks for all the great information!
April 6th, 2014 at 8:50 am
Hey Eric. Amazing article and extremely timely and relevant for me. I injured my shoulder about two months ago and haven’t been able to train. Two Osteopaths have been unable to help or diagnose me and my Doctor has basically just tried me on different NSAID’s. I’m waiting to see a specialist to hopefully get an MRI and see exactly what’s going on but my problem has been that nobody has been sure exactly what has caused the problem. I’ve had consistent nagging shoulder pain that has kinda been moving around different parts of the shoulder and to the back of my neck as well as down my bicep. Up until now I wasn’t really sure what exercise in the gym had caused this problem as I always track my workouts and didn’t have any performance issues in the gym. I’d assumed it was a shoulder exercise that caused my problem but after my last shoulder workout I was able to do 2 other workouts without problems. The last workout I was able to do was Chest/Tri’s where I did 35kg waiting dips. I weigh around 65kg at best and always go heavy on weighted dips so I’m now thinking they did the damage. Thanks a lot for your insight. I’ll probably stay away from dips when I start training again.
April 6th, 2014 at 9:18 am
Amen to this article. This is one of those exercises that people just won’t give up. There are so many better, safer ways to strengthen triceps without trashing the shoulders, especially for people with shoulder issues. As always, Eric Cressey is right on the mark!
April 6th, 2014 at 9:24 am
Dear Eric I know the question was about baseball players doing dips, but 77kg Olympic weightlifter LU of CHina does these with 3 25kg plates hanging from his waist and I believe exercises like this is the reason the Chinese weightlifting team is so good.
April 6th, 2014 at 12:44 pm
Of course, as a swing dancer, I have more latitude than a baseball player, but I used dips in the past with light weight to increase my ROM in that plan and worked wonders. 5 reps/day 5 days/week for about 5 weeks. I experienced discomfort at first and soreness in the tendon then 5 weeks later, I felt better than ever and gain 4-6 inches of ROM.
April 6th, 2014 at 12:56 pm
Eric,
Whats your opinion on using a seated dip machine?
April 6th, 2014 at 1:15 pm
Mike,
Not a good one. Might as well be bench dips.
April 6th, 2014 at 1:16 pm
Fred,
You likely gained ROM because you stretched out (or tore up) your anterior capsule. Not all ROM is good ROM.
April 6th, 2014 at 1:17 pm
Victor,
I think it has more to do that they Olympic lift a lot.
April 6th, 2014 at 1:17 pm
Aram,
Loaded push-ups come to mind.
April 6th, 2014 at 6:44 pm
Hi Eric,
I am a college pitcher (and PT student). I stopped dips a few months ago, but because I was getting notable ulnar nerve irritation at the bottom position. Ever notice anything similar?
April 6th, 2014 at 6:45 pm
Matt,
Not surprising. Pitchers get enough flexion/extension, and getting to this extreme position of flexion with significant triceps action could make an ulnar nerve cranky. Is it subluxating as well?
April 6th, 2014 at 6:49 pm
Eric,
This is a fantastic article and the 8 ways to screw up a row video is one of the best thing you`ve done. It applies to *so many* other exercises.
Love your work!
April 7th, 2014 at 3:51 am
Thanks for a great article Eric!
Do you think Static holds on the gymnastic rings with the arms in neutral (the gymnastic rings “front support” position) can play a good role in strength and stability development for the shoulders (albeit Isometric)? I find multiple sets of 30 sec holds of these really challenging but very beneficial because everything has to stay engaged (shoulders, core etc.) I’ve had two AC separations on the right shoulder and this seems a good, safe way to train strength and stability.
Many thanks,
Olly
April 7th, 2014 at 6:08 am
Thanks, Mark!
April 7th, 2014 at 8:21 am
Eric,
I am a crossfitter currently trying to work on getting a ring muscle-up and one of the main elements in the progression is a big dip. I’d appreciate your thoughts on how to progress in my muscle-up ability if doing dips is not highly recommended…is there no way to make them more safe? I am particularly interested because just the other day when I was doing my dips I felt very “hunched” at the bottom, which I’m guessing is due to the what you covered in this article.